Talk:Brad Friedel

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Scored a goal?

He scored a goal? When?

Against Charlton BobbyAFC 23:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikinews

He has been selected as the wikinews: Football player of the week. (How much people at wikipedia care, I'm not sure, but thought I'd tell you anyway) (meta:Wikinews is a sister project of wikipedia for thoose who didn't know). Bawolff 18:51, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Transfer speculation

He signed for liverpool last week.He s an lfc player now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.167.64.62 (talk) 17:15, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Prove it, we need a reliable source that says he has. Woody (talk) 22:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Useless statistics

There needs to be a different template for goalkeepers, maybe showing "average goals scored against" or "goals scored against" or "clean sheets". The "goals scored" stat doesn't tell me anything about 'keepers. --Kenatipo ^speak! 19:27, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

May be best to bring up at WikiProject Football rather than a specific article. Keith D (talk) 21:09, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good suggestion. I looked in the talkpage archives and user Jaellee made a similar suggestion back in April 2010 which wasn't enthusiastically endorsed. I'm waiting for him to let me know if he pursued it any further. Thanks. --Kenatipo ^speak! 22:18, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Keith. There appears to be a strong consensus in the footy project archive [1] against using the "goals scored" field to report any useful information about the goalkeeper's performance! Oh well. (Jaellee wasn't exactly suggesting a change; he was just finding out what the consensus was on showing a negative number as "goals conceded"). --Kenatipo ^speak! 14:42, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Brondby

The article says he was back-up at Brondby and didn't play any games, but his appearances chart says he made 10. ???

Also, should a period of training with Newcastle w/o obtaining a work permit be considered as a loan spell? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.214.27 (talk) 13:14, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reported bankruptcy

An IP has twice reverted a cited reference to Brad having filed for bancruptsy in 2011. The newspaper article as far as I can see meets WP:RS but can be a bit harder sometimes to prove a negative so have encouraged the IP to come here to discuss and provide any sources which supports their contentions. So far have not found anything to support this online but the IP suggests using my legal team to check it out with the Lorain county clerk of courts in Ohio. A new one for me on Wikipedia so wonder if there any lawyers out there willing to do some Pro bono work for me! Tmol42 (talk) 14:02, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've just fully protected the page. While the IP has been disruptive, his concern about the quality of the sources used to support BLP claims may be legitimate, and deserves more discussion. Mark Arsten (talk) 23:32, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No it doesn't. When it was the Daily Mirror source, they were right. Now I've replaced it with a Eurosport source, there's really no need for discussion, as Eurosport is a reliable source. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:07, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Eurosport article makes it clear in the first sentence that its own article is based on the Daily Mirror story, which doesn't make it any more reliable than the Mirror itself in this instance. January (talk) 08:41, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Proposing some revised wording. Following a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Brad Friedel and on advise of one of the Admins involved in this issue I have drafted some proposed text, for review her, to replace the wording which was a cause of some frenetic editing yeaterday together with a more robust source. I have found a source that I hope will not be an issue in terms of meeting WP:RS. The report is from the online edition of the New York Times of January 23 2011 See Here. The suggest text subject to comment/ amendment to be added is:-

....In January 2011 Friedel was declared bankrupt by a judge in the UK. This related to debts of $8m (£5m) arising from his soccer academy business in the US, based in Lorain County, Ohio.

Although, I found a slightly later report in the regional newspaper, The Chronicle here which I would contend also meets WR:RS and provides more background detail but I don't think more content from this is particularly needed in the article, though it could always be added as an additonal citation.

Anyway I will leave the proposed text above here for a while and would welcome comment and any suggested improvements before adding what ever emerges to the article.Tmol42 (talk) 17:37, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's certainly an improvement, most importantly it corrects the error that the bankruptcy was declared in the US rather than the UK, which now that I've looked at the IP's edit summaries more closely seems to be their complaint. The Chronicle source looks fine, the additional detail indicates that they're not just repeating The Mirror. They specify that Friedel himself (as opposed to a creditor) filed for bankruptcy, which wasn't in The Mirror or the sources based on it. I think it should be worked into the preceding paragraph about his academy, so that it follows on instead of being presented as a separate event.

Are there any more recent sources which tell us whether he's been discharged from bankruptcy? My other concern would be the article giving the impression he's still bankrupt if he isn't. (This is a general problem with covering legal action in BLPs, sometimes the initial action gets reported but the eventual outcome doesn't.) January (talk) 19:33, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just on the last question. There are several further articles about the outstanding liabilities and issues re the sale of the business and real estate in US media but don't think this is worthy of mention. There is no report on current situation re discharge from a bankrupcy. However this is not surprising as it is normal for discharge to occur after twelve months although it can be extended. The Insolvency Register does not hold any data after a short while post discharge, so cannot report on this in article just the fact that there was a bankruptcy declaration in 2011. NB There is also no such thing as a 'technical bankruptcy' as the Ip was I think implying, in the UK bankruptcy is bankruptcy.Tmol42 (talk) 20:47, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[2] doesn't say anything about him no longer being bankrupt, or still being bankrupt. Unfortunately, nor does anything else; although contemporary sources do generally state that it was going to be a short-term thing. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:13, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've had a go at drafting a version to replace the current (unsourced) paragraph about the academy:

In 2007 Freidel launched a non-profit soccer academy in Lorain County, Ohio at a cost of approximately $10,000,000, providing coaching on a full-tuition scholarship basis to youths aged 12 upwards.^[1]^[2] The academy had difficulty obtaining corporate sponsorship after the 2008 financial crisis and closed in 2011.^[3] In January of that year Friedel filed for bankruptcy protection in the United Kingdom as a result of debts of arising from the academy.^[2]

I've used a second source from the Chronicle which although it mentions the Mirror, quotes court documents and the Individual Insolvency Register so they've done their own fact checking. January (talk) 09:34, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know anything about English bankruptcy, but your proposed language and the sources make sense (finally, thank you). Only two things, one important and one tiny. What happened in the last two years? It's material that cries out for an update. Unimportant: there should be a comma after Ohio. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 12:08, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with January's proposal, and Bbb23's comments. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 12:18, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The lack of information after the initial bankruptcy is my remaining concern. As per Tmol42 above, he has probably been discharged from bankruptcy by now although if that wasn't newsworthy enough to report we can't get a source for it. January (talk) 14:36, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Overall the draft seems OK. Just a few points. First I think the NYT citation being the most robust must be included not least given the WP:BLP concerns about deriviative reporting from the DM. Second the terminology regarding the Bankrumptcy proceedings needs tweaking to recognise it was UK proceedings. Third I have just tidied up the citations - NB. there's some duplication in the reflist from the first draft above, but I've tested it elsewhere and the cites are all there.

In 2007 Freidel launched a non-profit soccer academy in Lorain County, Ohio at a cost of approximately $10,000,000, providing coaching on a full-tuition scholarship basis to youths aged 12 upwards.^[4]^[2] The academy had difficulty obtaining corporate sponsorship after the 2008 financial crisis and closed in 2011.^[5] In January of that year Friedel was declared bankrupt by a judge in the United Kingdom which was a consequnce of debts of $8m (£5m) arising from the failure of the academy business.^[6]^[2]

^ ESPN
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d Chronicle Jan 2011 Cite error: The named reference "Chronicle" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
^ Chronicle April 2011
^ Friedel's youth academy unique in the U.S ESPN 22 June 2008
^ Lorain soccer academy going up for auction Chronicle 5 April 2011
^ Shutting Out His Problems to Shut Out the Goals New York Times Soccer, 23 January 2011

Do you all agree we can about ready now post this onto the page?Tmol42 (talk) 16:18, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The NYT is no less likely to be repeating the Mirror than the others, it has no detail on the bankruptcy that wasn't in the Mirror and uses the Mirror's quote from Friedel's spokesman. The Chronicle specifies that it quotes the Mirror in places, but in others it quotes court documents and the Insolvency Register so it seems to have done its own research. The revised wording unnecessarily reiterates the collapse of the academy, which is covered in the preceding sentence. I also think the detail that Friedel himself (as opposed to a creditor) initiated this is relevant.

I'm still concerned that saying he was declared bankrupt and leaving it there may wrongly give the impression that he currently is, although I'm not sure what the solution to that would be. January (talk) 17:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still in favor of January's version and sourcing. I share January's concern. How long do English bankruptcies normally take? In the U.S., it could drag on for a while. Also, how does it end legally?--Bbb23 (talk) 23:34, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unlike in the US, in the UK since 2004 new legislation has set a maximum limit on an indiviual's Bankruptcy status of no longer than 12 months. It can be a shorter period, very very exceptionally it can be longer but only when explicitly dictated by the Court at the time of the determination or the person 'misbehaves' which is not relevant here. In any case after a year or whatever period is set, the Bankruptcy is declared as discharged and all record of this is removed from the Insolvancy Register a further 3 months after this. So I stress speaking purely hyperthetically now, if you were to check the Registrar of someone who had previously been declared bankrupt and can no longer find a record it must have been already discharged at least 3 months previously. The delemma of corroborating a negative is no different to any santion imposed on an individual which has been recorded on Wikipedia. The decision and sanction is included in the article, but when the sanction is lifted or repealed this is frequently never recorded; either as this is not picked up on by editors, or is not deemed noteworthy, and/or was never reported by the media. None of this impinges on the fact that a sanction was once applied. If you want to firm up on the 'spent' aspect of this you could insert a phrase and wikilink to the proceedure for Bancruptcy discharge which is referred to at Bankruptcy in the United Kingdom#Bankruptcy in England and Wales or could cite a statement using the Insolvancy Registrar website. By the by, re the comment from January above re the NYT using the DM made me smile! How do you know it used the Mirror to source this story as there is no atribution? That's a presumption that what they quoted was said to be a statement from an adviser.Tmol42 (talk) 01:26, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I said it's no less likely to be repeating the Mirror than the others, in response to your suggestion of using the NYT to allay concerns of derivative reporting from the Mirror. I think the source that does that best is the Chronicle, which attributes to court documents and the Insolvency Register and has details that were not in the Mirror. January (talk) 08:27, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Have taken on board what you guys have been saying so suggest we go with the draft above you both like. Shall we paste this into the article as no one else has come here since? It does not stop the debate but at least moves things on.Tmol42 (talk) 00:07, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Text added as agreed per discussion above.Tmol42 (talk) 18:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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[1] ESPN

[Chronicle-2] Chronicle Jan 2011 Cite error: The named reference "Chronicle" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).

[3] Chronicle April 2011

[4] Friedel's youth academy unique in the U.S ESPN 22 June 2008

[5] Lorain soccer academy going up for auction Chronicle 5 April 2011

[6] Shutting Out His Problems to Shut Out the Goals New York Times Soccer, 23 January 2011

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

[6]